Michael Pepper: I was 18 years old. I had arrived at Dover Air Force Base. I thought it had been early in November, but I looked at my record and I had gotten there on the 15th of November. So I was assigned to a maintenance unit so I really hadn’t done any in processing. And Jonestown came on the news that weekend.
I just remember it was a weekend when the occurrence happened. And so when I checked in for duty on that Monday, I guess, or Tuesday, I said, “look I hadn’t processed. I’m not really doing anything. I think I’d really like to go do this,” and my superintendent tried to talk me out of it.
Dr. Preston Jones: You mean by participating in the response?
Pepper: Right. Because they had put out a call for volunteers at some point on that Monday. And I’m not so sure that they got the numbers that they were initially looking for, but I know that there were quite a few volunteers.
So what I did is I just made my way over to the little security shack that they had at the main gate, which was the 1970s version of visitor control. And they had an SP sitting in there and I said, “hey, I’m here for the mortuary deal, and he said, “stand by,” got on the phone, called the mortuary up, and there were like two or three other guys there with me. Then a van came over, picked us up, and took us to the mortuary.
Jones: So let’s back up a little bit. You, so you get to Dover as a young enlisted guy; you’re 18 and mortuary services or whatever the term is. That’s not your MOS
Pepper: Oh no, not at all.
Jones: That’s not your military specialty. So the news breaks and the tragedy happens on November 18, and so the news begins to break quickly thereafter. Had you heard of Peoples Temple or Jonestown before that time that you recall?
Pepper: I can’t say that I had.
Jones: They put out the call for volunteers and you volunteered? What was it that motivated you to volunteer?
Pepper: I really think that it had to do with the fact that I was new. I really didn’t know what to expect. I liked the fact that it was going to be something different. I can’t put a finger on it.
Jones: Was part of it just kind of there’s something that’s in the news, not just locally, but nationally and internationally? And you have a chance as an 18-year-old to be involved somehow? Was there just the kind of importance of it as well?
Pepper: I can’t say that would be the case, to be honest. I was brand new. I had no essential ties really to the installation yet. I had not gone through the processing. I was still in a temporary barracks. No duty schedule was set for me at that point. Maybe I just needed some structure like most 18 year olds.
Jones: So at some point, when you volunteer, it’s kind of an abstraction. You’ve heard the news and you don’t know what to expect. But at some point, you have your first sort of contact with the unfolding consequences of what had happened in Jonestown, as those bodies now are coming to Dover to be processed. Do you remember the very first thing you saw or experienced that made you part now of this process of getting the bodies home and getting them processed?
Pepper: I recall that, once we got to the mortuary. There was a good number of volunteers there. I can’t remember the exact number. We were assembled in a foyer when you came in the door. And, when you went through the double doors next, there was another large area and I think we were assembled in there as well.
And from what I remember, they split us into two shifts essentially. Remember, at this point it’s still a preparatory phase. There are no bodies. You hear the news. It was basically a day shift and night shift. They kind of gave us an idea of what we would be doing, but it was very generic. I stayed for the night shift and the first thing that I got tagged with was phone duty and I think the phone duty came about because all the 50 pound brains were in the back trying to come up with a flow chart and how this was going to be done. You did have some other government agencies that were there at the time as well.
I think one was the FBI guy. I don’t know who the other people were, but you had some Army guys in there. You had the Air Force guys and some civilians, and I think they just got tired of answering that phone. It wasn’t a media relations position. I mean, that was the mortuary phone.
But, in some cases, either the base operator put whoever it was through or somebody was trying to reach their respective planner and they had that phone number that somebody provided. So that was my first night’s duty.
Remember in those days you could smoke? I must have drunk two pots of coffee. I had probably two packs of cigarettes. I read everything in sight. I had a little prepared statement that I had to give, especially if it was the media. And I honestly don’t recall more than maybe one or two phone calls from the media, which basically said, “contact the installation, public affairs or whatever they were called at the time.”
Jones: So you’re getting some calls that first night from the media and calls from others who just want to know what’s going on with the operation?
Pepper: From- like I said, maybe one or two phone calls from the media.
And then there were callers from—there was somebody that called from the Pentagon. And again, like I said, they were just trying to reach their planners that were in the back. But the phones kept going off, and I think they just got tired of everybody having to trundle out.
Jones: And how long would you say the whole process took from when you volunteered? So the news breaks, and you volunteer. Now all of this, all of the Jonestown stuff is done, and now we’re going to get back to whatever normal was as of November 17. How long do you I wouldn’t expect you to have a specific number, but just guessing how long do you think that process took?
Pepper: I think we were released before Christmas. I want to say by the 20th of December, we were pretty much done. They do an assembly at the end, I want to say that it was mid-December. It was before Christmas, put it that way.
Jones: And was the phone duty basically a job through that whole time?
Pepper: No, that was the first night. First, remember we got assembled, I want to say a day or two before the airflow started with the remains. So they needed to set up the process and then we were apportioned on each shift with a specific duty. And that would rotate. But after that first night I think it started—it was the latter part of the week when the first bodies started coming in—and that’s when everything just it was throttle up the whole time.
Jones: What were some of the jobs that you had through that month?
Pepper: First, the first night, or two or three actually, was in the identification phase. So they put one or two of us with each of the pathologists. I worked on teams that had an FBI guy there and then you had a mortuary technician there, and we unzipped the bags and we transferred the remains to the gurney. That was probably the first—I want to say three to five nights. Then they transferred, and subsequent shifts went on. Remember the airflow started and then there was the fact that there were more bodies than originally had been anticipated.
It was one of the few times that the military rumor mill actually was correct. Initially I want to say we were told there were—I know it wasn’t 900; it was probably half of that.1 And then you started having as the number of bodies coming in increased.
There was a need to clean the transfer cases and they had to be quick-turned so that when the aircraft departed the next morning back down to Guyana, you could put the transfer cases on there. So there was a whole process for that.
Jones: You’re talking about those silver cases?
Pepper: Those are transfer cases.
Jones: So you’re taking the bodies out of those. I’m assuming they’re in body bags. And then the next job you have is to clean out the cases.
Pepper: Right.
Jones: And the same cases are going to be recycled and go.
Pepper: Exactly. What they did is as the numbers increased, the little storage area that they had at the mortuary was not big enough. It was a couple of garages, maybe. And on maybe the third or fourth day, we showed up and they had Safeway and Acme refrigeration trucks that go to grocery stores. They had contracted, I think, a couple of them. There were probably five or six of them there. That’s where they stored the body bags so that the transfer cases could be freed up, cleaned up, and then sent back on the way.
Jones: So they stayed in the body bag. So you unzipped them, tried to do some identification, zipped them back up?
Pepper: No, actually, then they were transferred on a gurney to the embalmers. I can’t speak—you’re looking at this through the eyes of an 18-year-old. One of the guys explained to me that in light of the advanced state of decomposition, you can’t really embalm the bodies. So they did—I can’t remember what they called it. Let’s just call it a modified embalmment method. And that’s what they did.
So anyway, we transferred from the ID side on a gurney to the embalming section, and they did their thing. And then the remains were wrapped and then placed in a clean bag, back then into a transfer case.
Jones: So I’ve seen photos taken by a Special Forces guy who went down there and was one of the very first Americans to arrive in Jonestown. And I’m sure you’ve seen the photos from Jonestown. And you referred to the advanced stage of decomposition because of the heat and the humidity down there. And these bodies are piled on top of each other. In one of the photos, I looked at it for a second and looked away and said, “I don’t ever want to see anything like that again.” The question was whether I would use that as part of a lecture, and I thought no possible good can come from showing people these photos.
So when you said that you’re unzipping these body bags and looking at the remains, I can’t imagine the horribleness of what you’re witnessing as an 18-year-old kid.
Pepper: Well, I mean, the sight was not as intolerable as the smell.
Jones: How did you deal with that? Because even down in Jonestown—I mean a day or two before the remains get to you—I’ve talked to vets who are on the planes, and they talk about the incredible smell. Now up close down in Jonestown, they’re putting handkerchiefs over their faces and they’re spraying stuff on them or soaking them. How are you guys dealing with this?
Pepper: Well, we went to the seasoned heads and we said, “hey, what do you guys use?” to the morticians that were assigned there. And they said, “we use wintergreen.” Those first couple of days, I tried everything from an arctic survival mask—the white thing that you put on, but it’s got a nice full cover here—and I smeared wintergreen all over it. That didn’t work. And it kind of detracted from everything else. You couldn’t walk around a mortuary with an arctic survival face mask on. Then we tried surgical masks smeared with wintergreen. That really didn’t help either. And I think the full version of what we had at some point—when we were cleaning the transfer cases and sanitizing them, we did have respirators for that. Gas masks, for lack of a better term, and a face shield just because you were using chemicals. The chemicals were mixed in with the steam and the water, and plus you had the debris.
Jones: By debris you mean basically decomposed body parts? Is that what you mean?
Pepper: Well, most of those bodies, by the time we got them, I mean, you’re looking at five to seven days. And there were maggots. Each bag had about one to two inches of body fluids in it. I mean, if you look at your pictures that the media was producing back then, you know what happens when an individual dies. So you add that to the fact that they were in an exposed environment, and it’s toxic.
Jones: A lot of times vets who are involved either on the ground or at Dover have particular memories of children.
Pepper: I think that’s one element that I’ve kind of blocked. I remember going—when they had the reefer truck set up, I remember retrieving; it was always two of us. We take the gurney up, grab a new bag and bring it back, and there were times there were two lumps in a bag. I don’t really have any memory of identifying or any identification process where I was there where we dealt with children. I just don’t remember.
Jones: Do you have a recollection of—my understanding is that one of the real challenges that arose after this identification. One reason is because the bodies are so decomposed, and I don’t think we have all the genetic DNA stuff that we have now. But also I think for a number of the folks who went to Jonestown, maybe one of the things that attracted them to Jonestown is they didn’t have a whole lot of deep connections here in the States, or maybe everyone they had deep connections with also died with them in Jonestown. So we have bodies, but we don’t know who they’re related to and we don’t know who this individual is. Do you have a recollection of that? Just kind of, “here’s a body, and here’s somebody who’s supposed to try to identify it, but we have no idea.”
Pepper: There was a fingerprinting ID process. Fingerprinting was the primary method of identification. There was no DNA—the body- visual recognition was almost impossible. I mean, if you think of how swollen these corpses were, in some cases they had burst—there was no way that you were going to get a family member to come in there. And honestly, I think that’s why there were no reporters allowed in the mortuary. There was no purpose, really.
Jones: Do you have any recollection of when Jim Jones’ body came through?
Pepper: I never saw it, but I do know once the bodies started coming in, the first thing that happened is there was an additional security perimeter placed around a mortuary. So if you think about it, you had the exterior installation, which was secure, and then an established inner perimeter, which was surrounding the mortuary. And then you had a single point of entry where you also had an armed military policeman. And when Jim Jones’ body was brought in it was actually sequestered from the rest of the bodies and it was kept in a locked room in the interior of the mortuary. I found out because I asked him, “what’s your job? What are you doing here?” He is like, “I’m pulled security for—” and he showed me, and I think there were a couple other guys when we came on shift, and it was Jim Jones’ body bag. That’s as far as it went. I seem to recall there might have been a couple of other body bags in there.
Jones: You did see Jim Jones’ body bag? And they had extra security? Was that partly the news reports that came out and understandably the news reports that came out are talking about—you go back and read them now, and there’s the feeling these are a bunch of crazed maniacs in Guyana. And it’s understandable that is going to be the reaction.
All this time later, you look back at it, and you pay attention to what you realize that these are human beings who had the same hopes and desires as the rest of us, and just took this really unfortunate path. But at the time, there was this sense of these crazed people, and it still reflects itself in that phrase, “don’t drink the Kool-Aid.”
And the reason I’m saying all this is, was there a feeling at the time that maybe these people’s Temple folks are going to try to attack the base. Do you have any recollection of—is that because there’s a concern that maybe these Peoples Temple people are going to try to attack the base or something?
Pepper: I remember in those days we could still smoke, and I remember going outside to smoke. Not that I had to, but I liked being out in that crisp November air outside of the mortuary. And outside of the mortuary, I talked to the security policeman that was out there and he’s the one that mentioned that there was concern that somebody would try to—I cannot give that much credence—but it would explain why the security was provided in the capacity that I saw it.2
But they had cleared out the parking lot. There was a checkpoint there and then you had a checkpoint to get into the mortuary.
Jones: How did you cope with all this as an 18-year-old? Now I’m just asking a question about your own psychological strategy. What was your strategy? I mean, you do your shift then go sleep, take a shower and try to wash the smell off you?
Pepper: That was it. You had an overgarment that you would zip into, and then you had the glosses that went over your boots. I seem to recall that we double-gloved. So at the end of the shift it took you a little bit to get out of all of that crap. And then some elements went into a big collection bin, your glosses. I don’t remember what we did with those, but you hung onto them because it took you a while to figure out what the size was.
I remember washing uniforms almost every other day in the barracks, just because of the smell. The smell permeated the base. The body bags—you talked about what other jobs were there.
So between working the ID side and working the transfer side to the embalmers, there had to be a detail that was established where you would take the body bags, the used ones, to the incinerator. And the incinerator was over at the aerial port complex. So it would be a double bag trash bag and no more than two body bags just because of the weight of the contents.
So we would take a truck over there probably two or three times—at least twice each shift and just toss them into this huge industrial incinerator that was there. We probably did that a couple times on day shift too later on. There was always beef about the smell, like, well, we’re all dealing with it.
Jones: You’re referring to the contents and the body bags; that’s the fluids? So what is your strategy then? You’re working this shift: “Okay, I’ve got to come back and do this tomorrow.” Was it just almost a kind of shutting down, or going to chapel? What was your own strategy for dealing with this?
Pepper: I don’t know. I’m not so sure I could credit myself with any kind of a strategy then. I read a lot of books. I’d walk over to the chow hall to get something to eat, and honestly when I got off work, I’d hang. I’d stay up for maybe an hour just to kind of decompress a little bit, and then I’d rack out for a good eight or nine hours and then get up, go get some chow, and wait for my ride over to the mortuary. I didn’t even have a car then.
The catchphrase as you hear nowadays about resilience—those weren’t a part of the makeup. I don’t know about each shift, but as the process went on, you would report into work and somebody wouldn’t be there anymore. I mean, that even started on the first night, just some guy saying, “I can’t do this. I’m out.” And there was no shame in that.
Jones: Was there any kind of debriefing when all this was done?
Pepper: Interesting that you ask about that. So for us on night shift, especially the first 10 or 12 days, we didn’t see much of anybody. There was no senior leadership coming through. We’d see different sergeants every now and then. They may even bring something in to eat. We saw the clinician from mental health once at the beginning. And the one that we saw the most was the chaplain. The chaplain would cruise through.
Of course, the supervisory element within the mortuary would always be around to kind of check on people. And I think they did a pretty good job with it. They identified—we used the room where they make up the uniforms for military service members that have died; we used that as our break room. And so there would always be somebody in there that would kind of be, “hey, hey, how you doing?” There were some people that, for good reason, were like, “hey, I’m out.” But, there was no process.
Now, at the very end, that mental health guy, Lieutenant Colonel—he was a clinician—gave a really good presentation about what it is that you can expect in terms of, I don’t want to call it post-traumatic but post-event. He said, your senses will be attuned to what you’ve seen. And for myself, I can say that he was spot on. For me, it was a sense of smell. I had the most acute sense of smell for decades. I could be at a beach in Italy. I can smell something a mile down the shore that’s rotting on the shoreline. I remember hiking in a German forest after a rainfall and that fresh earthly air, and then there’s a whiff of decay. So for me that came out to be really the only lasting remnant.
Jones: What was your perception? I mean, it’s probably not something that you’re dwelling on, but given everything we’re hearing from the media, and it sounds like you’re doing your shifts, you’re getting chow, you’re hitting the rack, you’re getting chow, and you’re back on shifts, So probably not much time being given to the news, but you at least had that initial news. And there is that sense that these were a bunch of crazed maniacs who did this. As you’re looking at these bodies, as you’re seeing these body bags coming in, what is your own perception of these folks? Is there anything going on in your mind as you’re thinking about that?
Pepper: None. I’ve totally disassociated any empathy, sympathy, or disdain. There was none. It’s just the job. It was a gig. And the duty was to make sure that you got them from point A to point B to point C. And eventually, I mean, there were a couple of times where I went with the load crews where we had those flatbeds; they’re called 40 K loaders. But that’s what was used to transport—once everything had been done with the remains, they were taken to an old alert hangar off of the Christmas tree parking area, and that’s where those transfer cases were stored. In some ways, if you think about it, as those cases were transferred there, it really took on an appearance. It must have been 500, 600—I can’t say how many there were in there, but it looked like a lot. So it wasn’t a huge C-5 hangar or anything like that. It was designed more for alert fighter aircraft, but it was just stocked full of those transfer cases.
Jones: I wanted to ask, as you look back on that month, what the strongest memory is? Is that your keenest memory?
Pepper: The smell was the biggie. One of the local radio stations had gone automated, which was a big deal because computers were just coming into vogue, and I thought, “oh, that’s terrible.” But it seemed like everyone came off shift in that first 10, 12, or 15 day period; it would be playing the same music all over again because that’s from 20:00 to 8:00 in the morning; they were automated. There is certain music that gives me a flashback, if you will.
Jones: Do you recall, as you’re working with the other airmen over the month, are you guys talking to each other about this? Do you have any recollections of the kind of things you’re saying to each other as you’re working on this?
Pepper: From what I recall, there were a lot of things that were similar to what we’re talking about. “Could you believe the condition of these bodies?” “Let’s make sure we don’t get any of that crap on us.” We had one that we were transferring to the embalmers where the arm fell down and almost came off and that was kind of a moment. But it was just the fact that—and the installation was pretty good about it—but you could hear the complaints in a chow hall. You could hear the complaints at the commissary or at the bx, which was across from the mortuary. You just couldn’t escape it—complaining about the smell.
Jones: I’m assuming that if you write a list of major events in your life, this would probably go on that list.
Pepper: I mean, that was my exposure to the active duty Air Force.
Resiliency care nowadays is light years ahead of what we had. What we’re referring to are the debriefs. Honestly, we did it informally ourselves at the end of the shift. We’d sit around for a while and smoke a cigarette or two. That was just us doing it. There was no led discussion or any referral or anything like that.
Jones: Is it almost like what you hear combat veterans say that after a battle and everything’s calmed down, and they got the casualties out, they’ll kind of gather around and just sort of talk about “who did what and who saw what?” Was that kind of what it was?
Pepper: Pretty much. I would say that’s a good analogy.
Jones: I wanted to ask you, because this is obviously a major event in your life, but you told me earlier that it’s not something since then that you’ve talked about at any length until now—several decades later. Why do you think that is? Why do you think something that was such a big event in your life has been something that you actually haven’t talked about very much?
Pepper: It’s not a good discussion topic for number one. I mean, you can’t go to a Christmas party and go, “hey, here’s what I did last month.” And then it’s not a shared experience. If you’ve not seen that, it’s just not something that people can easily relate to. To be honest, there was never any insinuation, in my observation, that these remains were in any way construed as fanatics or I do recall early on.
I know Delaware had some concerns and the only reason I remember was because I was an 18-year-old, but there was discussion about, “what are we going to do?” I can’t remember what the discussion was, but it had something to do with the remains. I know that Delaware did not want the remains to be here.
We had one set of remains—you talk about the battlefield humor. It’s one of the last bodies, and the FBI guy is doing his thing, and we hear that this body was grotesquely swollen. They had a Timex watch that we had to remove. Well, he removed it and then I put it in a personal effects bag. So if they had any jewelry, any earrings, a wallet, or anything like that, it was put into the effects bag, and that stayed with the remains. And this one has a ticking Timex.
And then we talked about it at the end and we mentioned the clinician that explained the senses. There was a big Lysol truck that pulled up, and they had a company rep that showed us how to apply these. From what I remember, they were industrial-grade disinfectants throughout the facility. So we did that for about like a day and a half. So we thought, well, this is a commercial that you’ll see in the next 20 years maybe. Sure.
Jones: Is it like the music when you hear a ticking watch like that? Does that remind you?
Pepper: No. The music of anything from Toto, Ambrosia, or Heart seemed like it was on a cycle. And then when you get off of a shift, it’s always almost—
Jones: You’ve got the radio playing as you’re doing your work?
Pepper: Not so much at work, but when I got back to the barracks. And that’s actually where I got the majority of the news. The temporary barracks didn’t have a TV day room. So I didn’t have any TV.
Jones: Now when you’re removing the effects from these bodies, do you recall seeing like photographs in wallets and things like that?
Pepper: No. I don’t personally.
Jones: As you look back on all this, I’m interpreting that you said that one of the reasons you haven’t really talked about this very much is that it’s just something that is not a shared experience. And you hear the same thing from combat vets—“why should I talk about it because no one’s going to understand this apart from other combat vets?” You’ve talked about this with other vets who dealt with similar situations with mass casualty events. And I think related to that is an experience that you had that very few people had—speaking specifically of being part of this process of responding to the tragedy in Jonestown, this is something, an experience shared by a very small number of people. So there’s the experience that’s very unusual, but I wonder if, along with that, come certain thoughts about life and the human experience.
So it’s kind of a philosophical, psychological question, maybe, but as you look back on that, what would you say you learned from that experience, apart from the details of doing the job and body bags and all that stuff? Did you learn anything just about the human story?
Pepper: Well, I guess there are consequences for actions. Beyond that, I can’t really say that there were any other takeaways. I cannot second any opinions or viewpoints that indicated that the remains were in some ways not viewed with dignity or respect.
Jones: Regardless of whatever stories were being created in the media and in the popular media, you’re looking at a human being.
Pepper: Exactly.
Contextual Notes
- The earliest media accounts reported 383 dead in Jonestown.
“Cult Leader Kills Self, His Wife and Son Among 383 Suicides at Campsite,” Los Angeles Times, November 20, 1978. ↩︎ - See Was there a Peoples Temple hit list? ↩︎
